[C_S_Bernard]

Howdy and Hello, this is my first post to TalkMankind - somewhat brought to you by KimYoshiko (Disclaimer: KimYoshiko neither approves nor disapproves this message and is not accountable for content preceding or proceeding from this post; her name used without permisssion in my attempt to just say "Thanks for inviting me to the site: you're just super." )

Jokes aside, I must admit that I am either disgusted or appreciative that you, whomever you are, read the subject heading and decided to continue on from there. Whichever, I shall keep that particular information to myself. Now, without further ado: my topic.

"God is dead, and we have killed him." Those are the words of the "madman" told of in Friederich Nietzsche's The Gay Science. In short, Nietzsche's purpose of this philsophical tract was to say that Man's conception of God had become an obsolescent Dark Age trinket, staggering into the Modern 20th Century, with it only being a matter of time before religious devotion, belief, etc. would simply die off, thanks to Man's never-ending, stark scientific inquiry. For Nietzsche, a self-avowed atheist who resented Christianity, this was no loss.

Or was it?

Nietzsche, himself, had a peculiar hate-love view of Christianity. In The Geneaology of Morals, he wrote - with sarcasm and disbelief dripping from his pen - "A carpenter, a fisherman, a tent-maker, and a Jewess conquered Rome!" His comment being that the mighty Roman empire, something that Nietzsche vaunted as a pinnacle of power and human achievement, was bested by a vague Jewish sect that preached meekness and humility: hence the Roman Catholic Church, the Vatican, etc. For such insignificant characters to make such a significant achievement, then fade away, was both astounding and disgusting to Nietzsche.

Today, Man conquers and re-engineers the planet he lives on, via the technologies and sciences he alone has mastered of the creatures of the earth. He is no longer a part of the food chain. On earth he has built up the artificial structures of society, monetary systems, computer networking, and all other manner of human institution under the broad definition of "civilization." Man alone, has achieved this evolution, upon a planet that took millions of years to form, on the far flung fringes of the vast, empty and cold universe.

This is far removed from the era whence Man had come from: an earth centered in the universe, with the sun revolving around it - the perfect, yet imperfect, creation of the all-knowing, all-seeing great "I Am." Even farther removed from the young carpenter who spoke to a desert people, living in the backwater of a pan-Meditteranean empire.

We, you and I dear reader(s), stand at the beginning of the 21st Century - if you use a calendar that marked year one with the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. To what point and purpose does religion, as a whole, move toward?

Sexual scandals rock the Catholic Church; Islamic suicide bombers are ripping the Middle East apart, followed closely by strong-arm Jewish soldiers; part of the present confusion in Tibet is influenced by the way of the Buddha; and Pakistan and India have still yet to put all of their differences aside concerning Muslims, Hindus, and Sikhs. Perfect reason for anyone to denounce the superstitions and bumbling beliefs in loving gods that turn deaf ears to eons of suffering and torment laid upon their beloved creations.

At the same time, the average American, while professing a belief in some form of God, or other, is usually lax to participate in religious rites and duties. More often than not, while in Church, their mind wanders to what they'd like to do afterwards: play video games, fix a leaky faucet, who their voting for in an upcoming election, or - most important of all - which team they hope will win an upcoming sporting event. In these cases, going to Church is akin to visiting a little liked grandparent with lots of money, hoping that this particular elder will grant boons to this "loving" child before passing on.

Most common of all, though, is the American belief that, "Well, what's good for this person might not be good for me, but as long as they do it over there, I'm happy." It is an age of relativism.

Here and now! I submit these questions to you, my dear reader(s):

Is religion important? Has it always been important? Does anyone benefit from reading about religion(s)? In short: in the digital and genetic ages, has God truly died, and no one bothered to check his pulse?

+ + + + +

As the world is unfair, I must also be unfair when I say that I shall keep my opinions to myself. ...For now. I intend to let this topic and the optional poll run for quite some time before I decide to weigh in on the matter, personally.

I have said my piece: have at it!

[DizzyD]

I voted 'no', but meant 'not yet'. First or all, thank you for making that post. It is a great read and opens a potentially very good discussion. Is religion important today? The answer to that question depends greatly on the who and where you are referring to. I think that religion is important in many ways. Whether you like it or not religion does instill morals into people that may otherwise not have them... Has religion always been important? Throughout history religion has been very influential to every society I can think of. Does that make it important? I'm not sure. Does anyone benefit from reading about religions? Some people do. Some people learn things that make them better people by reading religious text. Has God died? No. People still believe in religion.

[JenKnight]

Religion is important. It gives people hope that would otherwise have none. It takes away fear or instills it in the hearts of those who are afraid of the fiery gates of hell. It brings peace and it can violently take it away...If you just take a glimpse of history, you can see that religion has been important. Almost every great civilization has had some set ways of thinking, always hoping that something exists that is larger and greater than they are. The Greeks and Romans had Zeus and Hera, the Egyptians had Amun Ra and Anubis, the Vikings had Thor, the Japanese had their God-Emperor, Europe had Christ, the Middle East had Muhammad, India has Ganesh and Vishnu, the Aztecs had their Sun god, ect...ect...

Of course, you benefit from learning about other culture's religions. If you do not have a basic grasp of a culture's religion, how are you supposed to understand, respect, or tolerate what they do that is different from you? By learning about the religion, you are actually learning about the people themselves and where they get their perspective on life. Learning about other religions is an essential part of being a well-rounded person.

I think that we still have a LONG way to go when it comes to genetics and science. If you ever took an advanced Biology course, you would understand. There is still so much we do not even know about our own bodies. Why do certain proteins make this exact shape and go where they are supposed to go? How and why do cells function with seemingly flawless ease? There is a long list of questions that you would think we would know by now and we do not. I believe as we see how complex everything actually is, perhaps how vast space is...If you do not know where I am coming from, look up the "Dark Matter theory". Scientists have figured out, that in space, our gravity laws do not work everywhere...so they have "discovered" something called "dark matter". It is a force we cannot see or touch, but it is keeping everything in the universe together? I would say that sounds like a scientific synonym for God to me. Or perhaps look up the Particle vs. Wave battle that has been going on in physics for hundreds of years. We still don’t know what light is, really. Amazing isn’t it?

I am a Catholic Christian and I do believe in God.

[Omega]

There is so much to say about this topic... I'll try to be brief and stay on these specific questions.

Is religion important?

Religion has been influential throughout history. We all know this so I wont waste your time and mine typing about why. Religion serves society as a means of providing answers and peace of mind. I believe that as people learn more, become more independent, and progress to higher thinking religion becomes less important. Questioning and thought enable people to find their own reasons for things. I do not think that anyone should need religion to have purpose in their life. As time goes on mankind moves from the abstract uncertainty of religion to their actual reality.

I'll have more on this later. Right now I really need to write a paper...

Also, I would like to remind readers that this topic has nothing to do with the truths of any particular religion, but of religion's importance to society. Please try to make your posts relevant as they have been so far.

[KimYoshiko]

Somehow I had a feeling that this topic was going to come up at some point. :)

First of all, I'll mention that I am of the opinion that all things exist for one reason or another, and religion is no exception. I believe that religion is important, and has been for as long as it has existed—and as long as it continues to exist, it will be both important and relevant to society. Even if that importance is derived only from the fact that it exists, it is important nonetheless.

Do people benefit from reading (learning) about religion? From personal experience, I would emphatically say "yes." Until recently, I did not know very much about any religion in particular. It wasn't until I took a literature course last year that I ever read anything out of the Bible—and I suddenly realized that there was so much I was ignorant of. Not just religion, but things in other literature, music, even current popular culture and science—religious references permeate the arts and society itself much more than you'd think. Even if the religion itself were to die out, I feel confident in saying that its imprint on society would not disappear.

Even if you don't intend to follow the religion you are learning about, it is still worth learning about—because somewhere, there is somebody who believes in it. I find very little wrong with expanding your horizons and, perhaps, learning where somebody else is coming from.

And now, addressing that phrase which is now quite familiar to me: I don't think that God is dead, or that He will ever die. To me, God is proof that humans have the capability to believe. I don't mean believing in God Himself, necessarily, but that they are able to believe that the world could be a better place, or that they can better themselves, or even that tomorrow could possibly turn out to be better than today... What evidence is there that these things are possible? None, really, and even some to the contrary. But as long as people can believe that things could be better, something that most religions speak of, then I think God hasn't died yet.

And Omega, I know how much value you place in reason, but I'm going to politely disagree. Reasoning is indeed a vital human ability, but without the ability to think in abstract, there is a great loss in what makes people human. I find something very admirable in the ability to believe in something that is intangible, even if it is a foolish endeavour.

One last thing before I wrap this up:

Perfect reason for anyone to denounce the superstitions and bumbling beliefs in loving gods that turn deaf ears to eons of suffering and torment laid upon their beloved creations.

All things exist for a purpose. Without suffering, we would not know happiness. Without torment, we would not know ease. Knowing that, I am willing to take the troubles that come my way, because that is what it means to be alive.

[Viridis]

Religion is important because of the role it plays in people's lives.

Religion is a group orientated behavior. The practicing of a religion can have a large impact on someone's life and actions. This impact is distributed over a massive population. The fact that religion controls certain aspects of a person's life and actions is what makes it important.

[C_S_Bernard]

Well, the time has finally come, I feel that I can say my piece on what I think about Religion. And, I suspect that a few will probably raise their eyebrows at this one...

Largely, I started this thread in the Religion section so as to "give a crippled crab a crutch." This site has been active for half a year, and yet there are only three topics in Religion, with only passing interest in them. It is, in that sense, that if God is not dead, then He must have very poor physicians.

"How dare he! This man is saying that I don't respect other people's religions! He's attacking my religion! He's trying to convert me! He's trying to put me on a guilt trip! I have to tell everyone!"

To any thoughts or allegations along those lines, I say "Nay." I am not interested in starting any crusade; much less such an embarassing squabble as a flame war. I think everyone here is too civilized for that. However, at the same time, I think it behooves such intelligent minds to contemplate religious matters more often than what they allow themselves. So, let us exercise ourselves.

When I quoted Nietzsche, earlier, I should point out that, at another point Nietzsche was known to have said, "It is perhaps dawning on five or six minds that physics is not an explanation for the universe; merely an arrangement." So he said in Beyond Good and Evil. Aye, again, I must state that Nietzsche was an atheist. But, he was hardly a man that fell in love with the physical sciences and any notion that Men were capable of answering "why" by finding out the "how." No, Nietzsche bothered himself with the metaphysical - the things beyond the five senses - that still, somehow, affected our feelings, our actions, and our judgment. His philosophizing, of course, gave aid to Freud's ideas on psycho-analysis.

At this time, I should point out that there are some psychology-based topics in philosophy, but none in the Scientific section. Is not psychology a medical science? Again, very little investigation of things beyond the physical. Shame, that.

My dear friends, I have two stories for you. Both of which I shall abbreviate.

In Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness, a story is told of a Dutch captain who, while trading with African villagers, lost his temper. Now, this gentleman was a very gentle Christian soul, never was one to resort to violence: a true testament to Modern, Western civilization. But, during his stay in Africa, something had changed in him, while dealing with the pagan natives. Ultimately, when he lost his temper, he did something he never had before, he struck an elder tribal chieftan, hard, with a stick. He proceeded to "whack [the old man] mercilessly." It was only an intercession by the chief's son that saved him: of course, the boy panicked and used his spear to stab the Dutchman, killing him. Now, do not fret, 'tis but a fictional account.

In Philip Jenkins's The New Faces of Christianity, an incident is related of several ministers of the Anglican Church meeting to discuss issues that are becoming more and more important to the church. Among those concerns, of course, were things such as how to be more use to congregations, what position should be taken on public service, and what position to take on gay rights, among many other "simple" things. An argument developed between a liberal white activist and a conservative black minister - Euro-American black? No, African black. Long story short, the activist insisted that certain "homophobic" passages of the Bible should not be counted as valid points, since they were probably outdated rules and regulation for a society that has gone the way of the Dodo. For the minister, this was moot. For him, the Bible was true, from cover to cover, from dawn of time to now. The argument became so embroiled that finally the activist declared that the minister was "monkeying around with the Bible," and that he should, frankly, "go back to the jungle you came from."

The second incident actually happened in real life. For me, it was an interesting reversal that a "liberal" had voiced such blatantly racist language in the name of gay rights.

Ladies and gentleman, cultured masses, I submit to you that Religion has not lost its relevance and is not losing its relevance. This is in direct contrast to any "advanced" belief that political and economic ideologies are the prime moving factors in the world, today. It is only in Europe and North America that such a belief is seriously considered to be true. Friends, if I may submit, there are, presently, 1.6 billion Catholics in the world, today. That is more than the astronomical population of China.

Now, there are some Catholics here, I have already had that proved to me. But, if I may ask, how devoted are you to your religion?

"There he goes! He's trying to persecute somebody!!"

Tut-tut.

Ladies and gentlemen, those who are Catholic, specifically, I submit a personal experience to you.

As part of a cultural exchange for one of my college courses, I went to a Catholic Mass, one fine Sunday. As a non-denominational Protestant, I was only passively involved with such things as standing up in the presence of the Processional, saying prayer, hearing the scripture for the day, and all the other things that Catholics are familiar with every Mass. But, what figuratively grabbed me right by my shirt collar and smacked me in the face was the Eucharist. The Eucharist - the act of blessing and consuming the communion wafer and the wine - has been mentioned earlier, elsewhere, but I'll let everyone interested in such things go look them up for themselves.

As I sat there, as a guest and not a parishioner, I saw a young Brazilian woman I knew go up for the Eucharist. I knew the woman in the same sense that I shared classes with her and accompanied her on various other trips we made to other places of religious worship. She could be considered a tomboy and another face in the crowd of North and South Americans. However, that Sunday morning, while most of the white parishioners casually walked up to take the wafer and wine, this woman stood out as she went up. When she went to take the Eucharist, she did so with such piety and humility that she bowed her head down and wrapped her arms up around her torso, placing her hands on her shoulders. In point of fact, she seemed very much like any peasant going before her lord or king: which, for her, she was. After all, for her, the wafer and wine had been transubstantiated into the body and blood of Christ, "the King of Kings." In short, she had the air of a woman who deemed herself not worthy of Christ’s gift, but accepted it with great sincerity and even greater humility.

Further, this same woman was highly offended when she was told by an Eastern Orthodox Christian that her faith was "mistaken." I saw her eyes flare with indignation, but she saved her derogatory talk until after the encounter. Given what I came to understand of the woman's devotion to her faith, it showed masterful self-control not to at least insult the person.

To drive the point home, I can quote the woman as saying that she was "scared" to come to Kentucky to further her education - fearful of the Protestant-laced Bible Belt- and that she had always been taught that Martin Luther - Protestant Reformer, par excellance - was a devil incarnate. Much to her relief, though, she admitted that she enjoyed Kentucky, very much, and that upon reading texts of Luther's she was encouraged to re-examine her faith and come to better understand it.

I hope you all found this "outside the norm." I know I did, when I experienced it first hand. Even more so when I began to better read up on the subject, outside of America. Did you know that witch-hunts, those arcane, medieval tactics meant to ferret out pagans and sorcerors, are still going on in Africa?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa...hes/index.html

I first read about the phenomenon in Mr. Jenkins's The New Faces of Christianity, some months ago, then stumbled onto the above article earlier last month. The article mentions that there is some suspicion about the true motives for attack. But, please, ladies and gentleman: the alibi? If I remember correctly, the last time that Americans shouted "Witch!" as a serious allegation in a courtroom was some time in the late 17th Century, in Salem.

No, Ladies and Gentleman, God is not dead, at least for the better part of the rest of the world: the Third World, the Developing World. My point, ultimately, is that we should consider religion, more seriously, all of us, even those of us who have taken the religious stance that there is no god, heaven, hell, or anything beyond the five senses; especially those of us who claim that claim the converse. Because, even though Islam is one religion that Westerners are currently at odds with, on many levels beyond fundamentalist extremism, it is but the tip of the iceburg. And, at present, we are haphazardly steering the Titanic, right for it.

Now, for fear of going over any limits on my post, I shall stop here. I have much more to say, but I will simply continue on, later this week.

I can only thank you all for your time and extraordinary patience.

[Omega]

haha I do not think I've got any limits on post length, but that post makes me think I should. (kidding)

I find it better not to say everything in one post. Rather I try to be brief about one point.

I saw that you said religion is far from dead in developing countries. I've noticed this as well. Truthfully, I believe that it is because they are uneducated. Their faiths are their only explanation for anything. Do they only accept these explanations because they don't know any better?

I'm sorry to those who I'm sure I've offended, but that is what it looks like to me.

[farnsworth]

About 84% of the world population describes themselves as belonging to some religion, and for many or most of those people, religion is the biggest influence on how they live their life. So I think that god(s) are very much alive, and that religion is the most powerful force in the world.

I'm an atheist, but I recognize that if you don't understand religion, it is impossible to make any sense of how the world works. That's why I try very hard to understand how religion "works", and why it's so successful and popular.

So that's my "short answer".

[America]

I think Michael Scott said it best:

Is there a god? If not, then what are all these churches for? And who is Jesus' dad?